What It Actually Takes to Add Groups, Supervision, and Scale to a Private Practice

DAMIEN:

Hello and welcome, everyone, to today's Health Practice Buzz. Today's topic: what it actually takes to add groups, supervision, and scale to a private practice. So my name is Damien Adler — if you haven't watched one of these before, I'm the co-founder and Head of Customer Success here at Zanda. I am also a registered psychologist, and in the past had started and grew, along with my wife, who's also a psychologist, a group private practice, and also proud to say — best-selling author of this book right here, so thank you to everyone who purchased that. Without further ado, I'd like to introduce Cassandra, who is going to be my co-host today. And Cassandra, I'll throw to you to introduce yourself, and then I'll start asking you some questions.

CASSANDRA:

Wonderful, thank you. Hi, everyone, my name is Cassandra Gavel, and I'm an accredited mental health social worker. I am the clinical lead and the director of GBY — Guided by You Therapy — and we have two locations, one in Sydney, Randwick, and also in Adelaide. So thank you for inviting me on.

DAMIEN:

Very good. Absolutely lovely to have you here. Now, what we're going to do — for people who are watching and are used to watching our webinars, normally what we do is we'd have a whole slide deck and we would have a formal presentation. We're going to do things a little bit differently this time, because we wanted to actually have a conversation with you, Cassandra, and sort of have a look at your journey, and really looking at these topics — except we have talked about the start. So that idea of expanding what is being offered, expanding outside of perhaps the traditional mode of providing one-on-one treatment, and really have a look at, you know, your journey — where you started from, where you are — and I think there's a lot of, you know, really insightful things that people can, you know, can learn from a conversation.

So you and I caught up a couple of weeks ago, I think it was now, to prepare, so I have a whole bunch of questions to kind of fire at you — we may not get through them all. But maybe a good jumping-off point is to perhaps give us a bit of a snapshot of where things started. So I think if I'm thinking right, this is back at around 2021, in that ballpark. So, you know, what things were happening for you then, and then fast-forwarding to where you are now, and what your practice does — and then we'll kind of go through a little bit about how you got to where you are now, and what that looks like, and lessons and things that I think will be relatable and useful for people, no matter what their discipline or background.

So let's kick off there. So, big question for you — 2021, what were you doing? Tell me about how everything started.

CASSANDRA:

Like everything, it started with a dream. I was a social worker — I'm working at New South Wales Health, and I knew I wanted to move into private practice, and I had absolutely no idea how to do that. So I actually just — ran into a little bit of luck. I was contacted by someone that was opening up a health hub, and they heard through the grapevine, because I'd put it out into the universe that that's what I was wanting to do, and they said, are you interested? So it started out with a very terrified social worker who was not even an accredited mental health social worker yet — so no Medicare on the table. And I just took the leap, and there I was, just me, on my own.

DAMIEN:

Okay, so that was you on your own in a — yeah, you know, in the hub. And like you say, no — okay, so no background in money and private practices and so forth. And that was — okay, I'm going to do this. And we're going to fast-forward now to right now — what is it that your business does, and importantly, the diversity of things — and then we'll kind of go through a little bit about how you got there, because I think this is a good — is going to give people a good understanding of the different challenges, the things that you did, and what you've learned. So where are things now for you?

CASSANDRA:

Well, things right now — as I said before, we have two clinics, so one at Adelaide, our mother clinic is in Sydney, and we are an all social-work team, meaning that all of the therapists at GBY Therapy have a social work degree — more of them have undergraduate, or they have masters in other things as well, but we all have social work degrees. And we offer a wide range of support and services, so we do one-to-one therapy — we do individual, couples and families, and in all different specializations as well.

We do a range of different group therapies as well, which is delivered both virtually Australia-wide and also face-to-face as well. We have individual and open group supervision as well, and we had on-demand support programs for clinicians, and also for parents and clients of all sorts. We also do professional development, and we actually put together team bonding, professional development, and continued CPD as well, for a range of different areas — teachers, other clinicians as well, and even corporate workers. So we kind of do a lot of different things.

DAMIEN:

Very good. And so, you know, if we think about this from a diversification point of view — because I think many practices will provide essentially most of their work will be one-on-one therapy, and it's a direct sort of trade of clinical time, or clinician time, for — you know, and they're providing one hour or half an hour, whatever it is, of service to a client. And what's really interesting, I think, with your story is that not so long ago you started out with — okay, I'm not even like accredited yet, like I said, didn't have Medicare. And now there's now a number of different streams that you provide — you know, it's a really good example of this sort of diversification. And I think, interestingly, you've diversified both physically, with the two locations — you've diversified in terms of the modality of delivery, so you're online and then also in face-to-face.

Then you've also diversified from that real-time delivery of services to also on-demand — and that would be, this is e-courses, or pre-recorded courses, or program support packages people can get. And you've also — if I'm going to summarize this — you've also diversified both in terms of client-facing work, along with services to other colleagues, right, to other professionals — and you've also diversified from individuals, so that you're still, you know, you've got that group but then also some corporate work as well. So that's a lot, in — you know, what are we looking at, 21? So it was at five years or so — okay, that's a lot. Okay, so which is fantastic, and I think this is, you know, it's something that people that follow some of our content, we think it's a really healthy thing to have and to be able to diversify, and for lots and lots of different reasons, which we will get into.

But now let's have a look a little bit about — with your story, so you started off in the situation you described. How did things kind of progress from there? What was the kind of — if you can take us through the rough kind of order, and you know, how those things happened, and what the challenges were along the way.

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, absolutely. I think I was really lucky in that I networked very, very well. So I found myself an incredible supervisor, who really supported me into the private practice role as well, because being a social worker, or even working for wages and a part of an organisation, and then moving into private practice — two completely different things. And I think at times it can feel quite isolating as well.

I was also really, really lucky that the director of the hub that I moved into was incredible, and she was really willing to help and share information and resources, and brought me into sort of a peer group that exists in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, with lots of different health practitioners as well. And then I really leaned on a lot of the relationships I built within health as well. So I built up a referral base, and I started to try and get a little bit more comfortable with my identity as a clinician as well — and that was probably the hardest thing, I think.

DAMIEN:

Yeah. So in building up the referral base — I'm trying to think about what questions people may have — so you're building up a referral base, and you were saying you were good at networking. What did that look like in practice? So when you're talking about building up a referral base, what did you actually do to kind of build that referral base, so that you start getting those referrals come in?

CASSANDRA:

Well, I'm going to bring attention to something that might not be very popular, but we probably should talk about, which is the fact that as a social worker with no mental health accreditation, I couldn't offer Medicare. And so there has always been, I think, a bit of a maybe traditional idea for GPs to refer to psych, or people that could offer rebates — and I understand that that's for the client.

So I did try advertising, and I sort of went around — and this is around COVID times as well, so you couldn't actually walk up a lot of the time, so I would prepare these little emails and call people, practice managers, and send my details through — but nothing was really coming through at that time. So when I talk about the importance of networking, I'm talking about getting to know your colleagues — and your colleagues could be people from the same profession, or also other professions — OTs, you know, physiotherapists, dieticians, people that work in the health profession. And a lot of my referrals started to come through those streams.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, so you're looking at parallel, essentially, other people operating in a similar space but not necessarily relying on the GP referrals. Okay. How did you meet those people? So if we're thinking about how did you make those connections, and were there people you already knew, or were — did you forge that network?

CASSANDRA:

It was actually a bit of both. Obviously, I was really lucky that I worked at the hospital prior to that, and so I have built up some networks, and I think your work is always going to speak for itself — so once people believe in you as a clinician, they're going to stay believing in you as well. But I was also really — I was actively attending peer groups, I was going to group supervisions as well, and this is more than just an investment in your practice — this is about networking as well. And I was exchanging cards, and I was keeping in touch with people, and I thought I would do trainings as well — I remember going to EMDR trainings, or eating disorder trainings, and really aligning with the way certain clinicians work. This wasn't just in Sydney, this is actually Australia-wide. And as we kept in touch, the network started to grow from there as well.

DAMIEN:

Okay, and that was very helpful. And then — so that's sort of how things started, so you started to get referrals coming. How did you end up to where you are now, where you're offering this sort of diverse range of services? So when we start thinking about, you know, things like adding groups — what was the catalyst? Did it work from day one, or was it a matter of trial and error? What was the driver here?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, so I think that — it's quite funny, and you know it — I think we all sort of sit in this illusion of — from thoughts, to be honest. Being in the shower and thinking, okay, I feel like I'm comfortable — and I think I mentioned to you the last time we caught up, that I believe that growth comes from discomfort. And when you're too comfortable, you probably — not stretching yourself to your full limits. And so for me, I always had a vision, moving into this, that I wanted to have clinics sort of all over Australia that were known for having social workers, and seeing social workers in that therapist spotlight as well — I want that to be a norm. And so in order for that to happen, I needed to see growth. But I'm also aware that for some people, that's not the case — they're very happy doing one-to-one work.

But for me, I wait for those moments where I start feeling like I'm comfortable in the work that I'm doing. My books were full, and I had just started diversifying my work — I had, as I said, my now mentor — and my supervisor contacted me and started inviting me to consult for her, and do some external supervision for some companies, and I really started to enjoy that, and I really started to become invigorated and inspired by what I could achieve. And so I took the plunge, and I thought, okay, we're going to start adding these to the mix. I knew that there were gaps in service for a lot of places, but I also knew that although clients were asking for certain services, it wasn't going to be that straightforward.

DAMIEN:

So did it work initially?

CASSANDRA:

No, absolutely not. I think I knew that going into it — I knew that it was going to be trial and error, and I felt like so much of my journey up until that point was trial and error. It's sort of like I picture it as, you know, trying on the different shoes until you find the one that's the most comfortable. So I decided I would start small, and we started with just offering the — virtual groups, and I really leaned into the networks that I had built. So I had, you know, a lot of support from professionals in the hubs that I worked within, but then also growing networks outside of that, with other professionals that I either previously worked with, or that I was supervising. And so the first few rounds of those groups were coming purely from those clinicians saying, I actually have clients that would really love to be a part of this. And so there was support coming from there.

DAMIEN:

Okay, and breaking it down into really the practical side of this — so to hear about what you were — so you've got this idea, you're feeling a little bit too comfortable, I want to kind of push outside of that — you've got an idea, I'm going to try this. Did you — how did the other people find out about it? Did you put a web page up? Did you contact people on your mailing list? Did you — to get, and you're saying those referrals, all those participants were coming from these networks — what were the practical steps involved? Because I think sometimes, you know, people get stuck at that — like, what do I actually do? So in your scenario, what part of that worked, and how did you get on the phone with them? Yeah, tell me about that.

CASSANDRA:

I had to figure out what the service was first, and how it would work viably for the business, because I'm always balancing the two — what's best for the client outcome, and then is that viable and sustainable for the business, right? And so what I did was, once I figured that out, I chatted to some of the clinicians that I thought would really like this, and it would really fit in well with, you know, where they shone. And once I got their feedback, we would always co-design what it would look like, and then I just put it down on paper, put it down on a little canvas slide, and I popped it up, and I started advertising it. I popped it through to some of my fellow clinicians and we went —

DAMIEN:

Emailed it.

CASSANDRA:

Yep, yep — just email across and say, hey, this is something we're looking at doing. Email, WhatsApp — yeah, yeah, I did. I had socials then, but I didn't have anywhere near a big following, it was very, very new.

But I just put it up there, and I thought, look, if it captures someone, then it captures someone, and that was great. I think for a time as well, I might have had some Google ads going as well.

DAMIEN:

Okay, yeah, just to test the viability and whether that would be worth it.

CASSANDRA:

Yes, yeah, we went from there.

DAMIEN:

Okay, and that you've started to feel those groups, or that —

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, that's hard to — yeah. Look, we've had periods of having them really full, where we've had lots and lots of referrals coming through, and then we've had other periods of not having anyone in the group. And so that's where I sort of would keep coming back to the drawing board about — look, we really like this service, we feel like having groups really aligns with that social work element of the business, and so we want to keep the groups but — again, how do we make it sustainable for the actual business? And that's when we had the open intake introduced, meaning that people can register for it, they don't pay anything, and once we have a minimum of three people that are enrolled in it, then we start.

DAMIEN:

Then you start from there. Yeah, that's a novel approach — like, so that's interesting, so then you know, you're sort of — you need, once you build up to whatever the critical mass is, that's enough to kind of start it, then that way — and that gets around some of the awkwardness with groups that can sometimes happen. You know, you launch it, if you don't get enough people, what do you do, maybe it's not viable to run — you know, and so forth. So that's an interesting way that you've approached that. And has that been something you've continued — and that approach to groups, like that you have open registration, you wait until you get to a critical mass or whatever's viable, and then jump in?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, absolutely. I think how you structure payment is important as well.

DAMIEN:

Okay, yeah.

CASSANDRA:

I have some groups that are open groups, and so that allows people to just join whenever they can. For the closed groups, we're really aware that we sort of can't have people falling off, you know, session two, three, because that's really going to take the experience for everyone as well. So for those ones, we ask for upfront commitments financially, and we go from there.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, and so they would prepay for the group program, and that's upfront, ahead of time. And now, so that locks in the commercial side — like, I'm one, you know, to be business-minded about it, because I think, you know, this is, you know, part of the challenge for people is trying to figure out, you know, what's, as you said, like commercially beneficial to the client. So the commercial side is taken care of, the commitment level is taken care of, because only people that are pre-paying are now joining.

That's really interesting. And then what about in other ways, the other areas that you've talked about, about where you've diversified, and a little bit about how did you get that to work? So when we think about — let's sort of jump to, say, the on-demand side of things — at what point did you decide, you know, there's an opportunity here, let's — walk me through that, and what worked, what didn't.

CASSANDRA:

It was actually moments which I'm sure every clinician has had, where your clients are sitting there with you and they say, can't you just be here with me all the time, or can't you just show me how to do this at home — and you sort of go, no. But I thought, oh, look, it would actually be really helpful for them to be able to use the website as a landing page. And sometimes I think, when I think about people who were booking in as well — I was finding that a lot of, because I have a program that allows people to actually manage their own bookings, and that's of course run through Zanda — and so I'm seeing that they're being booked in at midnight, two in the morning, four in the morning, and I'm saying, oh, that makes sense, because when people are really dealing with a lot of thoughts and a lot of life situations, they're going to the internet and they're trying to look for support.

So why don't I have something there? And I have a lot of clinicians that have a lot of really specific specialties as well, and so — why don't we capture this? And that's also — so not just for the clients, but that's also for these clinicians who work so hard, and it gives them a bit of a shot at having a little bit of passive income as well.

DAMIEN:

Right, exactly. So that was the sort of seed to the idea, was it? That, okay, we've got this, you see that kind of behavior — people are booking at unusual times where they're thinking about this kind of support.

CASSANDRA:

And that — yeah, I've experienced that as well, like going back to my practitioner days, where people would say exactly that type of thing.

DAMIEN:

So how did you go about — design the content, start to promote it, or how did you actually get that into the hands of people, when again there's that kind of commercial aspect, and there's — yeah, and the chicken-and-egg thing, do you make it first and then try and sell it and see if there's demand, or, you know — and this is where, again, I think people sometimes get stuck. And, yeah, so what did you actually do from a practical point of view to get to the point where you've got something viable to offer?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, it is a little bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. Yeah, I think, I think for us, the big thing for our team is that we're listening to our clients, and so, you know, when you're in this industry for long enough — and even if you came from, you know, I've got colleagues that have come from schools, I came from the hospital, and even government — you sort of see these things come through, and these gaps in support, and it's understandable, because everyone needs to switch off at some point in time. But we thought, okay, we're actually seeing a huge amount of young people coming through and really, really struggling with how to study, why they're not able to absorb information in the same way that their peers might be, and we thought, well, why don't we capture something that supports not just — what do they call it here, we call it QCE in Queensland, and you're in Victoria, so it'd be something else.

DAMIEN:

HSC, I think. Well, actually, VCE for Victoria.

CASSANDRA:

VCE, yeah.

DAMIEN:

HSC goes back a bit, that, uh, yeah, every state — so we're talking about year 11, year 12, or for those watching that are in the US or UK, we're looking at the end of the — the final couple of years of high school, essentially, is what we're referring to here.

CASSANDRA:

Which is a common thing right around the world, so people want to perform where they're trying to get into college, in the US or in the UK.

DAMIEN:

With it, you know, pathway to further education, there's this pressure on, right? End of high school, universal problem, there's pressure. So you're identifying these kind of themes from people that you're seeing.

CASSANDRA:

Yes, yeah, and then we sort of thought, well, okay, it's not just high school students — we've seen it from university students and mature-age students as well, and we thought, well, why don't we create something that they can have a look at at their own time — they don't have to commit to therapy, they don't have to commit to the sessions, because there is a financial element to that for a lot of people as well.

DAMIEN:

Of course, yeah.

CASSANDRA:

And so, so we just did it — we put it together, and I'm going to be really honest, the first one we did — it was really, really rough.

DAMIEN:

How did we put it out there?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, yeah, and we sort of took the approach — okay, it's not going to be perfect, but the content is there. And the way we set it up is that we thought, as we sort of moved through and we learned, because we understood that it was going to be a learning process, that we've set it up so that once it has been purchased, anytime we update it, it belongs to that client forever, so they have access to it even when we do our updates and everything on each of the packages.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, okay. So I want to dive into this idea that was a bit rough — okay, so did you, was this filmed talk-to-camera, or was it more workbooks, combination — just tell me the shape, because I think people out there are wondering, like, probably, what does that actually look like?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, yeah, so the first one was actually, um, it was a bit more of — probably similar to this, in that it was sort of like a click-through webinar type thing, where we had our voices talking, and there was some — there were some quizzes in it, I think there was also probably some voiceovers and some cartoons. It was engaging but probably — I feel like at the time we thought it was fantastic and really helpful, but I think in hindsight we've learned so much as well.

DAMIEN:

Yes.

CASSANDRA:

We're now at a point where we're sort of discussing and planning new things we're going to be working on, and then how to come back around and maybe improve the ones we've already done as well.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay. And so I think what you're talking about here touches on a point that's really important for people — we see this when we're talking to people around the world, and people that have done things that are a little bit different and diversified. And that is, you know, not trying to get things, you know, perfect before you go — have you experienced it, or have you seen people sort of get sort of stuck by that, or yeah?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, I mean, I'm a clinical supervisor as well, so I see it happen all the time. And I think — for me, I think I was very aware of that.

DAMIEN:

Yeah.

CASSANDRA:

I think we have a bit of a clinic motto, which all of my clients have come to almost be haunted by, which is progress, not perfection. And the reason being is, as long as you're progressing forward and you're taking steps, you're moving in a direction — but if you're striving for perfection, you're never going to really attain it, and you're still just setting yourself up for failure there. I think we always take a stance that comes from learning — so even if we have more experience in the room, that doesn't mean we have nothing to learn from the situation. And so we sort of went, let's put it out there, we will get feedback — and we did, we had clients give us feedback, and it was incredibly helpful.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, yeah. And so this iteration approach — so essentially you're talking about iteration in a sense that — yeah, so, and you think about this kind of learning idea, how do we learn the most, and sort of pontificating and planning and trying to perfect without real feedback — well, my view, and I think I'm listening to you, like, is not the best way to kind of learn — the actual doing, and getting real feedback, and then looping that back into the next version, seems to be a commonality in people that are successful in what they're trying, and often those that might struggle or never launch, you know, they have the idea, you know — and I'm sure there are going to be a bunch of people out there listening to this who are who have an idea for something that is relatable, that we're talking about, and they've had that idea for ages and they haven't yet done it.

Right, so, you know — so that's one difference I noticed in talking, you know, to you. The other theme that I picked up, and you actually mentioned earlier, was this idea of discomfort, right? And because you were saying that when you're comfortable, for you that's a flag — right, a sign that something needs to change, or that you're — or maybe have the space to do something different. So how do you, you know, you're putting yourself then deliberately into discomfort — tell me a little bit about what the type of discomfort, what that you've experienced, what that looks like — and perhaps we could start, because I know from my earlier conversation with you a couple weeks ago, you were saying, like, when you started private practice, and you're at that point, non-accredited — as a social worker, what was the discomfort you had at that point? Because — these are real things, right, that live in our heads. So what was living in your head?

CASSANDRA:

A whole bunch of imposter syndrome. Okay, yeah. I think one of the stories that I shared with you, that I feel was kind of one of those moments — it was a turning-point moment for me — was I was part of this hub group that was sort of calling out, looking for people to take referrals, and I'm in a group with, you know, doctors of psychology, clinical psychologists, you know, really, really experienced psychotherapists and counselors. And I'm sitting there feeling a little bit like I'm playing a role rather than I really belonged there. And it didn't matter how supportive people were around me — you know, it was sort of me, it was within me.

And I started to realize that everyone has these specialty areas, and everyone's trained in very specific things, and as a social worker, you know, you come from working in case management, you come from working in hospital systems, and you're very much — you know, we spoke about the medical hierarchy — you're not really up there. Okay, and so you're sort of expected to — you take what you get, and you don't get upset, and you're also sort of — so we got very, very comfortable in that discomfort. This is uncomfortable, but we have the skills to sort this out, we're going to lean into our strengths here. So when I found that coming up, for me, I started asking myself the question, who am I as a clinician? What is my specialty area? What am I going to be known for?

And then it was sort of — I think it might have been a few comments that were thrown to me as referrals were sent my way, which is that — oh, you're so great, you do so well with these really complex cases — and I went, that's it, I do. Maybe I need to stop being a social worker that's trying to be — a social worker that's also a mental health specialist. And that looks like actually leaning into the fact that, yes, we are comfortable in complexity and lots of different systems, and doing things a little bit outside of the norm, in a very holistic way.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, and so you've taken that sort of discomfort, that imposter syndrome you've kind of found, and — using, like, sometimes language I'll use around this is you're finding your kind of superpower, right, or you're finding your niche, you're finding the thing that you feel — right, what difference did that make? So when you've found that you're now leaning into the thing that you before, you know, you didn't kind of have a place for — when you made that kind of mental switch, what changed for you in terms of how your practice operated, how your business went?

CASSANDRA:

The imposter syndrome turned down — not all the way, because I think there's a healthy level of it, but it turned down, and I started to realize that actually there is space, there's room for all of this. I think it started to give me a little bit more of a direction — the world suddenly opened up for me, and I actually ended up winning a scholarship to train in eating disorders, which is known to be actually a really complex and very hard area to work in. I absolutely love working in it. Then that sort of, you know, introduced me to the world of EMDR — I always had a comfort and a love for working with trauma, and so I opened that up as well.

And then, as I started to build the identity of the company rather than just me as a practitioner, it started to become an extension of that, and it just felt organic — it felt like it was right, and it didn't feel like I was playing a role anymore.

DAMIEN:

Yeah. And then if we tie that into — to what we were talking about before, around sort of the networking, that people starting to feel — right, do you think that there's an element that, you know, where people feel when you're operating within — you've identified what's important to you, what are your strengths, you sort of get comfortable in that space — you know, as in confident, like you say, there's always can be some healthy — you know, learning, healthy insecurities, whatever you want to call it, it could be a small dose of healthy imposter syndrome, I think that is probably — you know, there's some benefit to all those things. But when you're networking then, and everyone does this a little bit differently, but do you think that shines through to people when you're, yeah?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah. Yeah, I think when you know who you are, when you're very clear in your identity, it's much easier for you to tell someone about it, isn't it?

DAMIEN:

Yeah, and so —

CASSANDRA:

So when that's very clearly articulated, people know who to send to you, because I think nine times out of ten, people want to support you — but if they don't know what you do, and they don't know if it's something that you're interested in, or if you have the skill set for it, they're going to um and ah, and they're going to go to someone that they definitely know does that kind of work.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. And then, okay, it also affects, I think, in terms of developing a team, right, when you're growing — because that's the other way we're talking about growing, we're talking about expanding, and diversification. And there's lots of different ways you can build a team, you know, and you know, you could — there's a whole scale, you know, from kind of, let's expand as fast as possible, you know, and perhaps not being as focused on types of people, to a very different approach. What was your approach to building a team, and how did that connect to what we're just talking about, in terms of, you know, maybe your values, knowing what your strengths are?

CASSANDRA:

I think when you have a really clear idea of who you are as a clinician, and what your values are within that, it makes it a lot easier to find like-minded colleagues — and I call them colleagues, because they work with me, we are a team, we don't really have a hierarchy system. And ultimately, you know, I'm going to make the final decisions for the company, but we're a team, and we grow it and we build it together.

One of the key lessons that I learned from my mentor, Ashton Hayes, was that, you know, you have to really trust who's nurturing, you know, your values and your vision for the company. And I think the analogy that I might have given you last time we chatted is it's a little bit like finding child care for your baby — are you going to look at just someone on the street and just give it to anyone that will sort of, you know, take them, or are you going to make sure that you're finding someone that's going to be nurturing and caring and loving, as close to what you would be when you're not around? And so that's sort of the approach that I took, and the reason for that is also not just for the growth of the company, but it's for the experience of the client instead of accessing the services within the company.

You know, I don't think any clinician gets into this type of work to get rich. Yeah, but I think it's really, really around care, and wanting to help, wanting to make a difference in people's lives in one way or another. And so I always made sure that I wasn't open hiring, I only work with clinicians that I'm familiar with, and I know how they work. And so I think I might have also said, you know, Ashton — she has her consulting business, and she does the supervision, and so as I was consulting for her, I was being exposed to so many incredible clinicians, with incredible skill sets and really passionate about different areas. And so when I would click with certain clinicians, or I'd think, oh yes, very aligned here, I would just put it out to them, and so I've had the pleasure of having so many amazing clinicians be a part of different parts of the work that we do as well.

DAMIEN:

And one thing I want to drill into a little bit here, and I think sometimes people get confused on this point, because something that I also strongly, you know, believe, this idea of like a values-based team, you know, has so many benefits — but does in your mind, like, or in the way — in your experience, does values-based mean that everyone takes the same approach, like that you're looking for carbon copies of you, or something a little bit different?

CASSANDRA:

Something a little bit different, yeah. I think that we're all unique, and that's actually —

DAMIEN:

Right.

CASSANDRA:

— what's special to clients. I'm a strong believer that I'm not for everyone, and that's probably a pretty good reason, but other clinicians might be. And so, you know, you spoke about superpowers earlier, I follow a very similar sort of pattern, which is that I work with clinicians who are incredibly passionate about certain areas. I don't need everyone to work in eating disorders or do EMDR — I have clinicians that work purely with addiction, I have clinicians that will only work with children, and I think that's incredible, because of their passion, they are putting absolutely everything into giving their clients the best possible experience and outcomes that they can. And I get to learn from them as well, and the company absorbs all their wonderful knowledge and skills, and it's sort of expanding and putting it out.

DAMIEN:

But that can occur, in that when there's a values-based kind of alignment, that from a referral point of view, a networking point of view, experience with, let's say, the brand — but you know there's probably a nicer way to say it, but experience with the organisation, right — there's something consistent, even though, you know, this is not about kind of, you know, it's not about, like, McDonald's, making everything like McDonald's, or standardizing in a way that sort of loses the superpowers of each individual practitioner or team member or colleague that you have — but there is those consistent values, so if a referral source refers to that practice, they know the ethos, or they know the experience that the client's going to have. And I think that actually, you know, in some ways it's a slower way of building, because you can just get bums on seats, right, if you don't really care about like that alignment of values, you can sometimes scale more quickly, because that's not a filter that you're using. But then you tend to end up with more like turnover, and more like, you know, lack of harmony within the practice, and, you know, things like that — whereas taking this approach, you know, allows that you're sort of attracting people as well that, like you say, that are sort of already aligned.

We certainly found that with our practice too — people would seek us out to come and work for us, we would open hire in the sense that we would advertise, but we had very — we had filters that we would use that, really, you know, most people that applied for a role with us did not get it. Like, that was, you know, and because it was, like I said, we need that alignment of values.

Back a step to the other areas you kind of diversified into, and looking at the — and then we'll circle into the commercials a little bit more. Working with organisations, and working outside of — now you looked at the kind of individual treatment groups, providing supervision services, and then working with other organisations providing training. How did that come about? And again, how did you get that off the ground, from a sort of marketing point of view?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, so that actually came about — I used to work for the federal government, and so as part of my role, I actually really hated it when I first started doing it, but we used to have to provide internal training to a lot of the frontline officers that were exposed to pretty traumatic stuff on a day-to-day basis.

DAMIEN:

Wow.

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, and I discovered that I actually — I loved it, I loved it, and I started developing these tools, and I had quite a creative background as well. And I always thought, oh, wouldn't that be great? And I think when I first went into private practice, I thought, oh, private practice has to be just one-to-one work, and then once I'd fully embraced the idea of actually being holistic and leaning into all social work skills, I went, well, why don't we do that? So we did — we sort of took the on-demand sort of plan, and we developed it so it could be hybrid, so we would have some that we could deliver in person, and then some that people could just sort of do self-paced, based on the content, whether it was appropriate or not.

In terms of marketing, look, it was actually really hard. People, I think, get inundated with lots of different people that are providing professional development and all kinds of services, so how do you filter through — but this is a really hard thing. And I think, again, what it comes back to is networking — so having the right impact on sort of just one person, it's going to lead to opportunities. And I actually had someone — just someone that I'd been supervising who actually wasn't a social worker, but they sort of told someone, and they contacted me, and then it sort of goes from there. It's word of mouth that's actually going to be your best friend. Of course, you're going to have, you know, some hits with your social media and any Google — Google ads and things like that — but ultimately, my personal experience has been, if you're giving good-quality information, support and experience to the people that are, you know, utilising your services, they're going to tell at least one person, and at least it comes back to you.

DAMIEN:

So, yeah, yeah, I would agree with that, and I think it — again, like observing and working out, you know, with thousands of practices around the world, and just seeing the different things that — you know, enormous amount on kind of marketing, or they'll develop a new program and it — you know, they get it out there and they get discouraged because they'll try that, or if we've all — all of us probably had experiences with Google AdWords, right, and if you don't get the settings right on your Google AdWords, you know, you can very easily chew up your budget.

But if we think about in terms of marketing, and I asked you this question in our pre-interview, it was around, you know, do you keep in contact with previous service recipients and previous clients and the people that have received — and I think if I remember correctly your answer was yes, you do. Right, and how do you go about doing that, what do you — you know, what do you do, because this sort of ties into again, you know, how do we market? I would argue the best people to market to often are people that have had some experience with the company organization. So what do you actually do to keep in contact?

CASSANDRA:

I do a range of different things, actually. So with our — say, with our self-paced programs, so our on-demand programs, we have a checkout cart, excuse me, that actually has opt-in buttons for mailing lists as well, so people can keep up to date with anything new that we release. So there's actually a student portal that goes in there, so sometimes people are interested and they want to stay on top of that. We also have a blog as well on our website, and so I think — you were saying that you saw the pop-up for the subscribe on there as well?

DAMIEN:

Yeah, so people have the option to do that as well.

CASSANDRA:

Right, and then of course, we have our — our subscribe list through our client portals as well, and people — it's very much driven by the clients, they can unsubscribe at any time. But on top of that, we've also got our social media platforms, so I've got TikTok for the clinics, and then we also have, you know, your Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. And what I've found is, first of all, there's very different audiences for all of those platforms, which is a very interesting thing to consider there as well — but also the different platforms we utilize for different things. So for places like Instagram and TikTok, we would have updates on the group — so video updates on the groups. And I had something called a Triple T series, which was Therapy Tuesday talks, or Therapy Thursday talks, and during that, what I would do is I would speak on certain topics — so it might be rejection sensitivity dysphoria, how to support someone that might have this, all the signs to look out for — just really, just really short, and that drove a lot of interest and it got engagement from people. So people would follow that, and that was another source of staying connected to the audience as well.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, and so then, if you've got — you're developing a product or a service that is going to suit that particular audience — so in that case, if I use that example, it sounds like that's going to be another professional audience rather than necessarily a client — so then that audience, and that would be, you would be able to promote to that audience. Okay, and then you would do that. And you were saying you were sending out, I think, emails as well, right, like, you people opt in?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, you go to your website, and that's what I was pointing out, you get this sort of nice pop-up that says, how would you like to join and receive updates? So they've got that kind of connection.

DAMIEN:

You know, with you, you're keeping them updated, so keeping front of mind — but then when you have something that's relevant or you want to sell, then you've got this ready-made audience that have had some sort of experience, familiarity.

Yeah, I think — and these are things, so I know we're running towards the end of our time, and I think, you know, I'd want to sort of, like, let's pull out a few takeaways here, you know, for people, because there will be people listening, right, who will be thinking, okay, well, you might happen to be like a really good sort of networker, right, or be really good in the areas that, you know, that we've talked about, but — if we kind of stand back and have a look, is that really what's behind that, if I'm understanding correctly, is, you know, is getting comfortable with — first, what you're comfortable doing, getting comfortable with yourself, with the role, understanding what that kind of superpower is, what fires you up, what gets you energized — and then you're sort of experimenting and finding kind of what works for you, even though it puts you outside your comfort zone, it's sort of on purpose. Right, and then looking at, you know, not trying to get things perfect, but actually just experimenting, to see what works, what doesn't, and iterating and — am I summarising that in a reasonable way?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, I think so, and I think — so, and I think also being okay with not doing it all. I think one of the traps that I think I've fallen into before, but I also see a lot of clinicians can fall into, is trying to keep up with what everyone around you is doing. And I think — while it can be quite tempting, it's important to try and find where your roots are, and stick to that, invest in that. I sort of, you know, as social workers, we really were known for living our practice — just right, and so I really try and think about — I have a little bit of a ritual I do at the end of all my supervisions, my clinical supervisions, and with any clients, and there's a love-hate relationship with it, where I say, okay, how are you feeling at the end of today's session, and what are the main takeaways from today's session?

They're doing that, no matter who it is I'm working with, I'm thinking to myself, what are my main takeaways from this session, because again, it's a learning experience, right, it's an exchange. And so I'm walking away, and I — had once said to a client, and it was about their relationship, it was that, you know, if you're living in a house together, how much investment are you putting into the foundation, right, okay — or are you just going through the house, and are you cleaning the house and dusting the — of words, meanwhile there are cracks in the foundation.

And so when I walked away from that, I sort of went, what am I taking away from this? And I thought, if anything, it's that I need to keep investing in that foundation, in these grassroots — who are we, what do we represent — and if something doesn't align with us, and doesn't align with our ethos, as you said, then it's okay for it not to be us. We can refer to our colleagues that do that very well.

DAMIEN:

Yeah, yeah, and so then it's around that — yeah, you're keeping aligned, and that brings its own energy, its own — and I think it's evident when you talk to people that are, you know, so that would be, I guess, a message for people, right, if they want to, you know, just define their thing, you know, the bread and butter, like — going, or whatever it might be that drives the business, and then experimentation whilst also kind of nurturing the foundations. And, of course, not being afraid — I mean, I think there's nothing new that I think I've ever done that I haven't felt like somewhat out of my depth.

CASSANDRA:

Exactly, or like, oh, this will be interesting.

DAMIEN:

But you can't — like to say, you learn, right, from that, and that level of discomfort is sort of part of that.

Very good. Now, I'm going to throw, as we finish up here, I'm going to throw the presentation back up and just put some contact details here for you. So if people who were interested in some of the things that you offer, or wanted to get in contact with you — what's the best ways for them to do it?

CASSANDRA:

Yeah, the best way is either email or our website, as well — but we're very, very active on Instagram and LinkedIn too.

DAMIEN:

Wonderful. And so all the details that you might need, people, you can actually jump on and you can find Cassandra there, and yeah, do check it out — it was great to see, you know, the way the website was set up, and getting that pop-up. And, you know, like, it's utilizing, you know, some things that can be super powerful.

And for Zanda, we've got lots of ways to contact us — so you can jump on the Zanda Academy, you know, want to learn more about our program, plenty of information there, and where you can get hold of our book, and plenty of contact points.

So without further ado, I'd like to very much thank you for sharing your experiences, Cassandra — we've covered obviously a broad range of things here. Thank you for sharing, because I think it's really powerful, people kind of hearing that journey, and that it's not — like you wake up one day and everything you try, you know, immediately works, or feels completely — you're ready for it and comfortable, and it's all perfect — but I think, you know, it's amazing what you've done in a relatively short — you know, space of time, and to be as diversified. So thank you for sharing your time and experience with us today, much appreciated. Thank you.

CASSANDRA:

Thank you so much for the kind words, and thank you for having me on — it's been an absolute pleasure.

DAMIEN:

Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. Bye for now.